On “My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy”
In AIM conversation with Kris Ex.
Exo: grand statement alert:
Exo: Kanye’s most emblematic quality has been his willingness to speak ego to power. that’s sorely missed by me on MBDTF.
Noz: who said that
Exo: that’s my observation
Exo: and also the type of analysis that gets lost in the “it’s great! first!” type of criticism
Noz: you don’t think “power” did that?
Exo: exactly why it’s missed
Exo: because he ignores that voice for the rest of the album
Noz: that’s a fair critique
Noz: i need to spend more time with the lyrics
Noz: or maybe i don’t?
Noz: right now i’m more interested in the album as a production statement
Exo: that’s my issue with a lot of this
Exo: and a lot of what goes on with OFWGKTA and much of criticism
Exo: whether Gucci or Waka or whomever
Exo: i don’t feel that the narrative can be divorced from the art
Noz: not divorced
Noz: but you can certainly focus on one not the other
Exo: i feel it happens too much with the critics
Noz: well with kanye
Noz: i still think of him as a producer first
Noz: which i know is really a narrow and deluded line of thought
Exo: not totally
Exo: i think of him as a producer first
Noz: i think a lot of what this album is doing too is him trying to ease into more of a dr. dre role
Noz: where he orchestrates an ensemble album
Exo: but, as a writer more than a critic, the idea of narrative is tantamount to me at this stage in my life
Noz: understandable
Noz: so enjoy watching matt lauer clips while i listen to music
Exo: not sure how you get that
Exo: to me narrative is in the music
Exo: whether you’re Flocka, Ross, Diddy, Taylor Swift or BEP
Exo: everybody’s selling something
Noz: you are saying that “blame game” lacks a narrative?
Noz: or that it’s not the narrative you want/expect from kanye?
Exo: i’m saying that his narrative before was highly autobiographical
Exo: now it’s “fantasy”
Exo: and hidden behind posse cuts
Exo: all of the lights, monster, appalled, etc.
Noz: yeah that’s where the album dips for me
Exo: you’re correct that this album seems more interested in making musical and sonic statement
Exo: it seems to lack the theme and cohesion of hsi past records
Noz: see to me his past records were short on sonic cohesion
Noz: and i think more often than not his theme can be summed up in a single song
Noz: ie “all falls down”
Noz: or “power” here, i guess
Exo: i think the theme here is “Runaway”
Noz: yeah that might be more accurate
Exo: i would love to hear the “Power” album
Exo: and i guess that’s what i’m saying is missing
Noz: hasn’t he already made the “Power” album though?
Noz: wasn’t that graduation?
Noz: (that’s not a rhetorical question – i haven’t listened to graduation in years so i can’t say for myself)
Exo: i think he’s reached whole new heights since that album
Exo: graduation was still bitching from a seat at the table
Exo: now he’s firmly ensconced in the proceedings
Exo: has a reserved parking spot and all
Noz: fair enough
Noz: i think it amounts to us wanting different things from kanye
Noz: i’m not really interested in lady gaga style TREATISE ON AMERICAN CELEBRITY rap
Noz: even though i will say that kanye does that better than just about anyone on earth
Exo: it just feels like a retreat
Exo: i can be wrong
Exo: and i still have yet to sit with it in any significant way
Noz: it’s forward musically
Exo: yet it feels like he’s hiding behind the music
Exo: which makes it hard for me to totally get into in many ways
Noz: and maybe that’s why i am into it
Tumblin' Erb
November 12th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
speaking ego to power was what “graduation” and the glow in the dark tour were all about. “power” is an extension of that, on steroids.
for me, lyrically, “mbdtf” is most interesting when it’s about relationships breaking down. “devil in a new dress” and “blame game” are balanced in specific details and wtf-moments many of us can relate to.
and musically, well, YOU ALREADY KNOW.
November 12th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
You a good writer. Write, don’t paste your fucking IM conversations.
November 12th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
LOL @ My Beautiful Dark Twisted FANTASY having too much FANTASY. Fantasy > Narrative IMO. You want to hear about my life, read my book, interviews, Behind The Music on VH1 airing at 11PM/10PM Eastern Time My Nigga.
November 12th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
And Syl, beautifully thought out IM convos is the new post-modern way to critique and write about art, fam. But, f’real, I liked you mixing this shit up Noz.
November 12th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
the best part of the album imo was chris rock.
November 12th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
“Noz: i think a lot of what this album is doing too is him trying to ease into more of a dr. dre role
Noz: where he orchestrates an ensemble album”
I think this gets at why i didn’t really care for Kanye on Graduation and 808s: i just was not terribly fascinated by his narrative (though early on that helped), but also how he’d bring different artists together. so it’s heartening to hear he’s gotten back to that.
November 12th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
If a music’s interesting parts are narrative then I tend to think it’s just not very good music. Same reason why rap-lyrics-as-literature doesn’t fly.
November 12th, 2010 at 11:27 pm
de firss track, de screwed verse on bl;ame game,a nd de ross song are on point. afta dat i turn dat bullshit off an listen ta mob shit
November 13th, 2010 at 12:05 am
Narrative takes a good track, and elevates it to permanently unforgettable. The same with all art. People don’t remember abstraction, people remember narrative.
November 13th, 2010 at 1:56 am
Narrative is easy to write about.
I’m not saying narrative doesn’t matter, it’s just all too frequently the focal point in criticism of music. Narrative is what makes music (and film) the most like the written word.
What makes Waka worth listening to? Gangsta narrative? No… it’s the abstract/ineffable/vibe/gunsoundz
Also, Ye’s ego story was getting him in trouble, no wonder he retreated.
November 13th, 2010 at 2:41 am
narrative simply implies “a story.” wether that story is real or fantasy is not the point. Slick Rick’s narrative was “i’m the shit, crumbs.” Waka’s is “got weed, got purp, got the hard or the soft, bow, bow, bow.” ODB’s narrative was “in the G building, taking all kinds of medicine.” there is no need for a narrative to be “high literature” or any of the other things you’re erroneously equating it with. narrative is simply the story being told, however that story is being told. the “fantasy vs. narrative” dichotomy some of you are putting forth is just fallacious. nor is it what i said.
Kanye’s narrative to this point has been highly autobiographical. my opening statement of his willingness to speak ego to power is what has defined him. now he’s retreating by making his narrative a musical one. which is his right. just as it’s my right to say, “meh. i liked it better when he was talking about his life.”
i’ve never been into Kanye (who is, by all accounts a pretty middle class kid) talking for “the streets.” and i don’t want to hear him talking about domestic violence and wanting to raise his daughter when he’s never been married or a parent. i don’t think he sells those fantasies well–unlike Pac who could sell a bunch of shit he had never been through.
i’m not a fan of long comments, especially when i’m just reiterating what i pretty much made clear in the IM convo, but it seems some of you need things to be broken down for you.
November 13th, 2010 at 2:49 am
this nigga still usin aim
November 13th, 2010 at 4:28 am
Those moments where Kanye speaks outside of himself (the verse on “All of the Lights,” which is paired with um, Fergie’s verse which is also probably maybe not from Fergie’s perspective) are interesting because it’s him moving beyond his ego. The tons of guest verses too, suggest a sense of letting other ideas, voices, etc. into the music.
Also, these verses by Kanye where he isn’t talking from “his” perspective, coupled with the tons of other rappers talking about other shit, does kinda build-up to the end; the whole “who will survive in America?” stuff. The album doesn’t end with Kanye talking shit (‘CD’, ‘LR’) and it doesn’t end with him kissing Jay-Z’s ass like ‘Graduation,’ it ends with this genuinely moving statement: “What is this fucking life? What is all this shit? Be it fame or your credit card being denied or being some indie fucker who lost in the wo-ooooo-ds. What is all this crap and why does it matter? Who will survive in America? Who’ll survive in America??”
Given the shitty economic climate and politics and blah blah blah and you know, the reality that China will eventually take over the world if we aren’t all annihilated by nuclear weapons, Gil Scott-Heron’s “dig to china etc.” is especially prescient.
All that said, I hadn’t given much thought to the album’s lack of narrative but yeah, it’s just not there. Another part of me though, wants to say, “it’s just subtler, more complex.” It isn’t as explicit as say, ‘College Dropout’.
November 13th, 2010 at 10:04 am
the best part of “MBDTF” might be that great conversations like this come from it. sorely missed.
November 13th, 2010 at 10:22 am
After talking on AIM… how did ya’ll time travel to 2010 and post this convo here?
November 13th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
exo: “there is no need for a narrative to be “high literature” or any of the other things you’re erroneously equating it with.”
No one’s mentioned “high literature” at all. It’s like you said, narrative = story (or literal themes?). Over and over again in writing about music (and film) there’s a need to find the narrative, the linear structure that makes dynamic things easy to talk about. That’s frustrating to me and tells me little about why I appreciate the music that I do, and why certain music that is cool seems pretty idiotic when written about because again, the focus is on what story is there (e.g. as seen in most writing on Waka, sorry Noz).
Back to Kanye.. the narrative in his music has been fun to follow but goddamn much of it is hella childish. His work is most interesting to me for its vision, how its changed, that he does an 808s and was expected to get back to straight up rapping but instead comes up with the sonic weirdness in MBDTF, which is the standout part of the album. Maybe 808s was too personal, then he gets mauled by the media, time to hide behind self-importance and “art”.
November 13th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
BK:
you have a very narrow view of narrative: “the linear structure that makes dynamic things easy to talk about.” umm, no. even what you describe in your last graph (the change of narrative) is still part of his narrative. i just don’t care for this story from him.
and if ypu’re frustrated by the music writing you’re reading, i can’t blame you. most of the shit sucks. but there are good writers focusing on narrative. not to say i agree with their observations, but there are some out there.
November 13th, 2010 at 6:03 pm
This blog has fallen off.. You guys ANALeyes rappers to the ponit of Gay Stanism.. Fuck Noz and the rest of you queers.
November 13th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
“You a good writer. Write, don’t paste your fucking IM conversations.”
FREE NOZ. This must be an imposter!
Seriously though, what is happening to my favorite blog?
November 13th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Oh yea, I really don’t wanna come to cbrapz and read about kanye either… gotta hear about him enough in the daily life outta every joe schmoes mouth
November 13th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
“Oh yea, I really don’t wanna come to cbrapz and read about kanye either… gotta hear about him enough in the daily life outta every joe schmoes mouth”
You guys are fools. This the best writing on the album so far and it isn’t even really writing!
November 13th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Hey Zeus is fucking faggot that hates talking about music BAAAAWWWWWWWW.
Anyway, to summarize, (autobiographical) narrative is just as worthy of music lyricism as fantasy and persona. I don’t think a lyricist should focus too much on either; I mean your life may be boring, but it can’t be that boring. Plus, a good story is always good despite what art form you are using.
November 13th, 2010 at 11:55 pm
And fuck you too, Nico. Go bitch and make mindless comments about how bad this blog is on your Twitter, you twat.
November 14th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
I don’t got a twitter homie! This comment shit is about as close as I get. I love cbraps but I’ve felt empty without it lately mayn! I at least would like to hear from Noz what’s goin on with the scarcity of posts and shit. I know he mentioned at one time that tumblinerb and cbrap would someday become one… if thats whats happening cool but i’d like to know.
I know noz doesn’t owe me shit, but the title of “most kick ass blog on the net” is about to slip out of his grasp in my own mind, and the mind of others so im just conveyin that.
much love to noz sorry to sound like a cranky bitch but i sort of am one right now.
peace.
November 14th, 2010 at 4:39 pm
AIM runs through IChat.
Nico – I’ve been on the road a lot lately and in the time between been busy with work related writing (like that giant thing Lil Wayne thing I just did for Complex, which took forever even though it might not seem like it would). I try to check in with short form shit on Tumblr and Twitter when I can but right now I just don’t have the time or psychological investment to write longer blog stuff as much lately. I have a couple cool things ready to go in the next week or so though.
November 14th, 2010 at 7:25 pm
[...] CB » On “My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy” [...]
November 14th, 2010 at 11:17 pm
no this was a good post
November 14th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
dope thanks noz you are the shit truly.
sorry i acted so entitled and shit
peace
November 14th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Yo, I have to say that if I were tracing how Kanye’s story has changed up I’d look at the past 3 albums and go from “Flashing Lights” to “Street Lights” to “All of the Lights”. Yup, I’d nerd the fuck out to that.
Now that Noz has a breather from penning 100 page-click manifestos (holy shit!.. and nice work) for Complex maybe some scraps will show up here. (*cough* Wolf Gang Q&A *cough*).
November 15th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
“*cough* Wolf Gang Q&A *cough*”
Yeah because they’ve been getting so little press lately.
November 15th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
Yeah you’re right, I just wanted to read that Wire article a ways back and I don’t cop that mag anymore (it can be good though, people should cop it).
FREE EARL
November 17th, 2010 at 11:49 am
Don’t listen to haters this was some of the best mbdtf discourse I heard yet! Good analysis reflects how I feel about the album… more blunts please! one post a week or two doesn’t do it son!
November 23rd, 2010 at 9:42 am
a lot of MF DOOM ism on this album, don’t deny it.
November 24th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
[...] it comes to rap anyway?), and really it was way too fresh for that. Noz, an old-guard rap blogger, threw up his cautious take (singular themes, forward-thinking production) via the new analytic blogging: a chat. But the [...]
November 29th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
“i think a lot of what this album is doing too is him trying to ease into more of a dr. dre role”
Is it not what he has been doing since Late registration with Jon Brion, Toomp, jeezy adlibing and Mike Dean… To me he has been operating exactly like Dre ever since. Lock NoID, Mike Dean and to a lesser extent The Documentary song guy in a studio with additional support from Pete Rock, RZA and Q-Tip and things will happen sonically… I suppose it does take some direction or a theme for these 5 minutes pieces to gel and some do so credit to him.
KanYe West is a great AR for the rest I’m not so sure…
December 6th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Kanye, stop riding Satan’s dick already!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv3SEsnCEUE
December 12th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
MORE rappers need to ride Satan’s dick. IMHO.
False Positivity will ruin Hip-Hop.
December 26th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
Exo: i think the theme here is “Runaway”
Noz: yeah that might be more accurate
Exo: i would love to hear the “Power” album.
January 8th, 2011 at 10:05 pm
You’re an inspiring and important writer, Noz, but this conversation didn’t seem to contribute anything to the world of hiphop, especially towards the intellectualizing of it. It sounds like you two had your talk after not even two listens, and your commends read too casual to mean very much. I wouldn’t have had much to say on Kanye before this album, but this album seems to me a masterpiece, and worthy of considerable critical analysis, not a once-over. You could really do some real work on this album, and it would be a good, worthwhile labor (not that you haven’t said enough, I guess – your coverage of GOOD Fridays was thorough). Sincerity and respect, I admire your work, I read you religiously.
January 13th, 2011 at 12:28 am
“all of the lights, monster, appalled, etc.
Noz: yeah that’s where the album dips for me
Exo: you’re correct that this album seems more interested in making musical and sonic statement
Exo: it seems to lack the theme and cohesion of hsi past records”
I definitely agree with this.